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TOPIC: Autobalance with bots

Autobalance with bots 27 Jul 2013 13:37 #14447

  • FamillyEntertainer
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Hi, i just have to report this, but i have no idea how it works.

-> When there are bots on the server, autobalance is usually upside down!

I will try to explain, sorry for the long post and the pedantic explanation, i'm only trying to be clear :)


=== A little scenario: ===
Players for Red team:
StrongHuman
RedBot1
RedBot2
RedBot3


Players for Blue team:
WeakHuman
BlueBot4
BlueBot5
BlueBot6


Red team is winning.

Event: a human is connecting.
Reaction: currently the "autobalance mechanism" (i dont' know what exactly, probably set up in in the bot clients?) decides to kick a bot in the stronger team (so not to have the stronger team with more players temporarily, i suppose).
So in this scenario: RedBot1 is kicked.

Then the new player connects, and of course AUTOJOINS, and we have these teams:
Players for Red team:
StrongHuman
NewHuman
RedBot2
RedBot3


Players for Blue team:
WeakHuman
BlueBot4
BlueBot5
BlueBot6


Now the weak team (Blue) is playing 1 human VS 2 humans.
And so it becomes more imbalanced.

As new players join, the same thing continues until teams are:
Players for Red team:
StrongHuman
NewHuman
NewHuman2
NewHuman3


Players for Blue team:
WeakHuman
BlueBot4
BlueBot5
BlueBot6


Teams are imbalanced to the max!
ONLY THEN will new players start to join the weak Blue team. (if no ragequit occured before)

And it's not over yet for poor WeakHuman!
What if a new human joins? Then, he will finally be able to join blue :

Players for Red team: (4 players still winning)
StrongHuman
NewHuman
NewHuman2
NewHuman3


Players for Blue team: (5 players still losing, but there's hope now?)
WeakHuman
BlueBot4
BlueBot5
BlueBot6
HumanSaviour


Good, it's starting to be less imbalanced!

But now what if NewHuman3 leaves the game from red (winners). Teams become 3 red VS 5 blue, it's imbalanced. Players from winning team start to complain, but bots do not go to the smallest team. Instead, a human has to make a choice:
- a human has to leave blue team (biggest team), and desert the losing team
- a human has to write "!teams"

But if we do !teams, then who gets forced to smallest team (red) ? The last who joined, of course! And it's HumanSaviour
And now we have:

Players for Red team:
StrongHuman
NewHuman
NewHuman2
HumanSaviour


Players for Blue team:
WeakHuman
BlueBot4
BlueBot5
BlueBot6


And WeakHuman is living The Autobalance Nightmare :p

In conclusion, if you're not stronger than 4 humans, you're in for a bad time :)


=== (naive?) ideas to improve the situation: ===

- Disconnect bots from losing team instead of winning team.
It gives the opportunity for new players (or winners willing to balance) to join losing team and replace a bot.

- If a bot is in a team that is losing but has 2+ players more than the winning team, make him autojoin the winning team (and desert the losing team), instead of forcing a human to do so.

- SOLUTION AS A PLAYER:
If you're in the winning team with more humans and want to balance, you have to cooperate with another winner:
1. both of you go to spec,
2. do !teams,
3. autojoin
So it's possible, but it requires cooperation, and sometimes it feels hopeless...
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Autobalance with bots 28 Jul 2013 00:49 #14453

  • LammeSnail
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OMG. Thanks for your post, but balance is a hard thing.
First of all, that the urbanterror by default has no balance.
We do balancing with B3.
But B3 (xlrstats) knows only registered players. When any new player connects, then he/she is handled on the default skill point/level.
On FUNNY it is 2669, on CLASSIC it is 1673 in the database. (The default skill point is 1000).

So when a skilled, new player connects any time, the balancing will fail of course.

If you are interested in, xlrstats uses the following ranking system:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system
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Autobalance with bots 28 Jul 2013 07:33 #14455

Some time ago I played on a server (can not remember the name) where they had a B3 plugin for automated balancing. Every time a team has been better the system display a message on bigtext "Teams are not balanced. Doing balance teams!"
Sometimes this has been troublesome if someone connected every 2 min.
But in the end everything was fine
I'm back bitches
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Autobalance with bots 28 Jul 2013 10:05 #14457

  • FamillyEntertainer
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@Lamme:
I'm talking about when there is no admin online to do !min !bal !teams etc...
My point is (partly): when a player connects, then bot from the strongest team disconnects. Then the bot (weak) is replaced by the new player (better than a bot).

Of course it seems a problem to me because i assume bots to be weaker at CTF than the average player.

Right now, some mechanism disconnects bots automatically when a player connects. What is it?
Maybe it's possible to revert this mechanism (allow bot from WEAKER team to leave)?

(but yes, sorting by skill is indeed hard, and thanks for the link i didn't know about that! seems good reading :) )

@Badass:
On some servers (at least on the defunct PWNY) i've seen a mechanism for auto-!teams, so that it's never 5vs3.
But in this case, !teams can do the opposite of the right thing (see last situation where a player from the strong team leaves, and !teams removes a human from the weaker team)

However, something like auto-!bal seem delicate :-/ (frustration some players have to be like a ping pong ball between teams :) )
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Autobalance with bots 28 Jul 2013 14:08 #14458

  • LammeSnail
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Yes there is a simple balance with player numbers. We have this although I didn't want to set it too frequent since this make B3 lagging (command queue full).

There is an other solution, but I think it is compiled into the server binary. And this I don't have time (and resources) to compile, sorry.

I will check if what I can do more. Thanks.
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Last Edit: 28 Jul 2013 14:08 by LammeSnail.
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Autobalance with bots 28 Jul 2013 15:47 #14460

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But when a player connects, a bot disconnects. How does it work?
I think this is the part that can be most easily improved.

Anyway, thanks for your replies :)
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Autobalance with bots 28 Jul 2013 17:28 #14464

  • LammeSnail
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It is controlled with this plugin:

forum.bigbrotherbot.net/downloads/?sa=view;down=120

Sorry but I can't edit its functionality... :unsure:
.
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Autobalance with bots 02 Aug 2013 12:13 #14511

  • AngryNanny
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Balancing by skill is almost impossible in UrT.
I assume it's even harder with bots.

Balancing by number is possible (although it's not well done with default UrT settings).

!teams command is not interested in the number of caps.
Example: Red team is leading 8:0 with 1 player more.
!teams command tells "Teams are already balanced".
You have to agree that this message is not correct ... ;)

The solution is to modify the algorithm for the command.
@Fam: Check your forum for naixn's modification.
forum.sexyscore.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=213&p=5028#p5028
You probably will find it in the sC repository.

There's also a possibility for an "auto-teambalancing".
Server checks for unbalanced teams within a set time interval and balances teams by itself.
(I can't recommend this totally because of the "ping-pong-player" side effect.)

Finally I can highly recommend Rambetter's "forced-auto-join" patch.
Basically it prevents the server from winner joiners.
(In fact, it's working pretty simple. Clicking any button in the "Join" menu has the same effect like clicking "Auto-join".)
Check urbanterror.info for this patch.

One more thing: I have no experience how my recommendations are affected with bots.
I can only assume that it won't be worse.
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Autobalance with bots 02 Aug 2013 18:49 #14513

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Rambetters patch is good for players who are not in the "mood " to use autojoin , Snails chosen plugin is good for balancing in game.
But no plugin or patch can handle the actualy situation in game! If you get changed by the system the second or third time only two steps away from your cap ...then you WILL get angry for sure.
Nothing can replace a good admins work! The combination on skill shuffle ( in the last 2 seconds until the new match started ) and a minmove ( in combination with !bal before ) showing the best results in my opinion. I only rarely use the forcing command , but sometimes its the last solution to handle a hardly balanced match.
My best result was a balance of 0.01 (right Cl1c? ;) ) , an average balance of around 0.30 is mostly possible to do.
:whistle:
Legalise the Balisongs !
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Autobalance with bots 02 Aug 2013 19:10 #14514

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Cthulhu wrote:
My best result was a balance of 0.01 (right Cl1c? ;) ) , an average balance of around 0.30 is mostly possible to do.

Right :D

I agree with Cthulhu, nothing can replace a good admin work.

However, there are some case when the bal is not simple. For instance one or several really good players who are not registered and so don't have skill points.
The best balance for me would be a bal which can calculate in real time, the average skill of a player from the beginning of the game. But that's mean a lots of processing for B3 and a new bal plugin. (but still something to test ;) PIPI xD).

The real point is that b3 can't replace a good well formed admin work.
Last Edit: 02 Aug 2013 19:16 by cliclic.
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Autobalance with bots 02 Aug 2013 19:35 #14516

  • AngryNanny
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Cthulhu wrote:
Rambetters patch is good for players who are not in the "mood " to use autojoin , ...
Mood? :huh:
Don't tell me that those lame players do not exist on KRH servers.
However, since it's possible to join the winning team to +1 player, the balance by number is fucked up.

Long time ago we even had defined a warning shortcut for autojoin-ignorers. Since this patch was installed, we never had to care about anymore.
No more warnings, no more discussions.

In combination with a modified !teams command it's 100% assured to get balanced teams by number.

Nothing can replace a good admins work!
I never questioned this statement.
Almost each time I played with Fam on Classic, there were no admin.
Typing !teams to get a better balance had either no effect (because of the above mentioned "bug") or was sabotaged by bots.
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Autobalance with bots 02 Aug 2013 19:55 #14517

  • Cthulhu
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! teams is not a balancing command , it equalises only the number of players in both teams ( 5vs 3 ... ! teams ... 4 vs 4 )
I thought you got adminlevel ?! If yes you can use the ! min command ( balancing by skill )
:cheers:
Legalise the Balisongs !
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Autobalance with bots 02 Aug 2013 19:56 #14518

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AngryNanny wrote:
Long time ago we even had defined a warning shortcut for autojoin-ignorers. Since this patch was installed, we never had to care about anymore.
No more warnings, no more discussions.

I think this patch could be a good start to force players the right team.
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Autobalance with bots 02 Aug 2013 20:14 #14519

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Cthulhu wrote:
! teams is not a balancing command , it equalises only the number of players in both teams
No? Why does it tell me then that the teams are "already balanced"? :P

I always talked of "balancing by number".
Of course you can call it "equalizing" if you want. ;)
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Autobalance with bots 02 Aug 2013 21:05 #14520

  • LammeSnail
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As I can remember I already played on a server where there was some automatic online balancing.
Maybe SzaPe compiled it into his server binary.
I will ask him.
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Autobalance with bots 06 Aug 2013 23:23 #14569

  • Mathieu
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Fragbot balance automatically teams at each round end if they are unbalanced (by number of players ex: 5 red vs 2 blue). In fact Fragbot use !teams at each round end. So the command !teams is absolutely useless now and don't have to be used.

frag-urt.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=22
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Autobalance with bots 07 Aug 2013 21:28 #14579

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Thanks for the info, but I thought to something different. I used to play on a server, where I connected when a map was already running. I did autojoin, and sooner I was put to the weaker team with a bigtext message, that my team was much stronger so a balancing was made (and sooner on the same map again back LOL).

And about balancing. I can see some admins to do balancing with !teams. This is fine and thanks for your help, but I can tell you how I do (some can verify I played already with): I do not autojoin on own servers (on other servers I do ofc). I check the scores first, then balance, greet everyone, and then join weaker team.
When weaker team has more players, then join the stronger, and change myself immediately with weaker player in the other team (!ch xy).
If the map runs for a while and my team gets stronger, then I decide to go into spec for balance, or change back with an other player.
So usually I do balancing with myself.
When teams needed too much balancing, then I do !teams at the next map beginning.

I hope it helps. Of course this is offtopic about balancing with bots, but could be helpful when admins are online.
About automatic balancing I will check what is possible.

Thanks.
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hi my friends, any senior admins around?2 members of my family, husband and wife banned probably from the ip issue. Their nicks are roadrunner and cubukkkraker. would you pls help us :)thnx

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Privet, selam, salut everyone! :) I got your email Cont and going to fix this! ;) Welcome back Sierra and Clic! :p

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Hello Contro :) Hello All :D

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Hello cliclic wb :)

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hi again after all these years :) I lost my admin rights after the new pc. Would any admin please help. take care all cu

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Snail check Email pls

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Snail you also good health :)

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I wish everyone good health! Stay home and play a lot ;)

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Happy Birthday Pens mate xD

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totally ok Lamme :D

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Ohh true, I got your email but I struggle with a mass of emails to this address and hard to find the valuable content, ok sry guys I check them

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Don't ban be for this! lol

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Same here,i also send him private message,long time ago,but Snail always reply'ing with some delay.Looks like there is a reason of a snail word in his nick :P

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Lamme check your krh clan mail sent you a email a while ago :)

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Heyy, thank you for everyone, Johanna, cont and ide! :) Been busy lately sry. Have a nice day! :D

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Happy birthday Lamme missed the big day but better late then ever hope you had a fine day/and evening

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Happy Birthday dear Snail :p

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Happy Birthday LammeSnail !!! enjoy this day how u can the best :) :) :)

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